Live Music Archive
Librivox Free Audio
Metropolitan Museum
Cleveland Museum of Art
Internet Arcade
Console Living Room
Books to Borrow
Open Library
TV News
Understanding 9/11View Post [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 10:06am |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Yes, I am focusing entirely on those that distinguish plants, and consume the entire plant, often the vital reproductive parts.
Think about it; this is NO different than consuming an egg from a chicken--they are both putative future offspring of the organisms (also, yes, plants do feel pain; this is well documented in sci literature; just "different" from us, but they do literally "scream" [with chemicals] when chopped and bitten...we just don't hear them because we define our world differently).
If you ONLY clipp off parts of plants, never eat fruit (seeds, nuts), then you truly may be living in some sort of harmony with them, BUT they still don't "like" it...
Plants defend themselves against grazing with secondary compounds, they are evolutionarily trying to "stop" all grazing...
Just like "real" chickens defend their nest...
There's no diff tween a domestic carrot and a domestic chicken, just think about it...
Good chat.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | beijingscene | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:17pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Yes, I am focusing entirely on those that distinguish plants, and consume the entire plant, often the vital reproductive parts.
Think about it; this is NO different than consuming an egg from a chicken--they are both putative future offspring of the organisms
i understand your reasoning, but trust you accept there is a different way of looking at this. cards on the table: i am buddhist (emphasis firmly off the 'ism,' dogma style). in positing there is NO difference you are taking on millennia of tradition and 1/6 of humanity. i stand with siddhartha.
(also, yes, plants do feel pain; this is well documented in sci literature; just "different" from us, but they do literally "scream" [with chemicals] when chopped and bitten...we just don't hear them because we define our world differently).
also agreed that something chemical happens, but to define it as pain we would have to share some budding plant matter and discuss the nature of "knowledge" and objective truth of "sci literature."
If you ONLY clipp off parts of plants, never eat fruit (seeds, nuts), then you truly may be living in some sort of harmony with them, BUT they still don't "like" it...
i choose to believe that the ride through our bowels and out to a brave new world of regrowth is a wild adventure, but i think we can agree that this is pure conjecture, neither of us are plant seeds (last time i checked) ;-)
Plants defend themselves against grazing with secondary compounds, they are evolutionarily trying to "stop" all grazing...
this statement intrigues me. please elaborate. grass does not want to be grazed upon? i know some plants defend themselves (thorns etc.) but the fresh cherries i ate off my tree this a.m. sure didn't put up a fight.
i hope you recognize i am being sincere. i welcome new ways of thinking about this stuff.
Just like "real" chickens defend their nest...
There's no diff tween a domestic carrot and a domestic chicken, just think about it...
i think about it non-stop, and adhere to a tradition that does see a difference, and i feel a lot more compassionate toward chickens and swordfish and fishermen and post-pig dead as a result. there is a tremendous amount of intelligent literature about this, just too much badly translated into english.
Good chat.
agreed. and of course in the end we're all dead anyway.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:18pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
First, you draw a line between plants and animals. Wrong. Period. Cannot be done, except by a slippery slope of "relative differences, nervous systems, etc.". Sorry, but ALL organisms are life. Period. It's that simple. So, the ethical argument that I only eat plants because they do not feel pain, or can regrow is just so much rationalization (sorry). Your "stories" as to what you believe about plants and your digestive system are no different than the Mohawk that blesses the deer he consumes, and helps the herd by preventing overpopulation, blah, blah, blah..."just so stories" (sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true).
Second, yes, plants produce noxious chemicals in response to grazing. You really think they "want" to be grazed? Why don't deer herds want the sick and weak "killed and eaten" then? It helps the population, right?
But, natural selection/evolution favors individuals over populations, and that's why we all feel pain--to persist and survive.
Third, you are right that SOME parts of plants are coevolved to have their parts, like fruit, eaten for a PURPOSE (distribution of seeds to new areas) BUT humans do NOT do this now, or in the past (few exceptions may be proven, but not widespread).
So, unless you are in a tightly coevolved system with a plant species, the whole notion that you both benefit is just a story, but if you insist on adhering to certain stories due to "faith" and such, we can't really discuss it....again, harsh, but true.
As it stands it's pretty simple: there are lots of good reasons (health, carbon production, etc., etc.) to reduce meat consumption, BUT there is NO ethical/moral basis for implying it's "better". If you come to this discussion with a belief system that simply accepts various stories about relationships, accepting those that involve plants, but denying those of many cultures that involve animals they hunt, isn't that a little narrow minded?
So, dispense with those and stick to facts. Not for life, but for philosophical clarity in this case.
That's all I've been driving at: no body or its parts, in general(any organism), wants to be eaten.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | bluedevil | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:44pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/saturday-night-live/video-betty-whites-dusty-muffi-36437.aspx
I'm doing my best to distract/derail this topic....
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | cosmic charlie dupree | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:51pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:47pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
I can't believe how often topics come up here that actually relate precisely to what I get paid to write and speak about, but that's why you're bored to tears (can you believe people pay to hear me say this crap?).
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | SomeDarkHollow | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:58pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Just being a member of the same species as them makes me want to lower my defenses and be eaten in a desperate attempt to stop the pain.
There's always a flipside :)
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:02pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
You mean the chicken or the carrot we've been discussing?
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | SomeDarkHollow | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:04pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Don't hear anyone complaining about a Great Carrot Famine, do you?
Ummm, where did this begin exactly? Oh, yeah, Cliff's fish. I wonder if it would have spurred the same fervor if he had been holding a human head?
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | bluedevil | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:50pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
BTW, Cliff did post a link to a good show.
Of course,I'm over on wolfgang's listening to a 70 Mad Dogs and Englishman show.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | beijingscene | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:04pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
First, you draw a line between plants and animals. Wrong. Period. Cannot be done, except by a slippery slope of "relative differences, nervous systems, etc.". Sorry, but ALL organisms are life. Period. It's that simple. So, the ethical argument that I only eat plants because they do not feel pain, or can regrow is just so much rationalization (sorry).
no sorry necessary. this stuff fascinates me. but i must admit to skepticism at your certainty. does not even western science differentiate between plant and animal kingdoms? i am not talking about theoretical fine lines, but clear general principles. most people i know think there is a clear distinction between a plant and an animal. but i see i've got a "scientist" on my hands (sorry).
Your "stories" as to what you believe about plants and your digestive system are no different than the Mohawk that blesses the deer he consumes, and helps the herd by preventing overpopulation, blah, blah, blah..."just so stories" (sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true).
yikes, a materialist. i just lived two decades with a billion of them. they have now concluded that there is a spiritual dimension. but it sounds like we are not going to change each other's minds.
Second, yes, plants produce noxious chemicals in response to grazing. You really think they "want" to be grazed? Why don't deer herds want the sick and weak "killed and eaten" then? It helps the population, right?
i question this logic and could detail why, but cannot spend more time on this angels and pinheads discussion. i honestly wish you could persuade me of your view.
But, natural selection/evolution favors individuals over populations, and that's why we all feel pain--to persist and survive.
i think the common wisdom in the field is a little more complex than this now? fruit is not sweet and delicious to spread its seed? i thought that was generally accepted?
Third, you are right that SOME parts of plants are coevolved to have their parts, like fruit, eaten for a PURPOSE (distribution of seeds to new areas) BUT humans do NOT do this now, or in the past (few exceptions may be proven, but not widespread).
sorry, you lost me. humans don't do what? eat fruit? eat plants and spread their seeds? i have lost the thread....
So, unless you are in a tightly coevolved system with a plant species, the whole notion that you both benefit is just a story, but if you insist on adhering to certain stories due to "faith" and such, we can't really discuss it....again, harsh, but true.
i do insist on adhering to my veganism, but your reduction of it to faith alone is missing the forest for the trees (sorry, the puns are unintended). here is my national championship address: sds23@duke.edu. i am happy to continue this conversation until we are both tuckered out. question: do you think there are phenomena present western science or you cannot explain with certainty?
As it stands it's pretty simple: there are lots of good reasons (health, carbon production, etc., etc.) to reduce meat consumption, BUT there is NO ethical/moral basis for implying it's "better".
i sure wish i could share your capital NO certainty about anything. if you know this, can you tell me where we go when we die? (i want to place a bet). can you logically/scientifically disprove the existence of karmic law?
If you come to this discussion with a belief system that simply accepts various stories about relationships, accepting those that involve plants, but denying those of many cultures that involve animals they hunt, isn't that a little narrow minded?
i know from first hand experience that there are cultures where eating animal products at least is necessary for survival. tibetan buddhists eat yaks that die naturally. you will never see me use upper case NO about anything in this magical mystical existence. i do not think we are capable of that level of certainty.
So, dispense with those and stick to facts. Not for life, but for philosophical clarity in this case.
That's all I've been driving at: no body or its parts, in general(any organism), wants to be eaten.
10-4. over and out. gotta go cut the grass (seriously) ;-). thanks for riffing. i am happy to let bluedevil moderate a debate. dukies never flop and get cheap charging calls ;-)
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:15pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
I am sorry to say, you do not stick to the topic(s).
One LAST clarification: not a materialist; that point was "multicultural". How is YOUR Buddist system "better" than the Mohawks? They "BELIEVE" as you do for plants, that animals benefit by being hunted. Defense?
Re-read your posts: you KNOW too much, not me (the many lines in which you say "I know...", "I believe"). When I say we have established plants produce secondary compounds to defend themselves it's based on thousands of publications. If you deny those, we're truly done.
Yep, you have a SKEPTIC on your hands first and foremost, only second, a scientist...but, to make you feel better, I do have a Phud in Philosophy. I've been lecturing and writing on this topic for 35 yrs...not that this will mean squat, but I am not just whistling Dixie.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | SomeDarkHollow | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:22pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Please don't make me drag this even farther down, for nothing would give me greater pleasure.
Seriously though, kudos for an excellent arguement. Has provided some great reading during an especially slow Friday.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 2:03pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
[this still leaves unanswered why I do this, but...topic for another day]
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | bluedevil | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:44pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/saturday-night-live/video-betty-whites-dusty-muffi-36437.aspx
I'm doing my best to distract/derail this topic....
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Mandojammer | Date: | May 14, 2010 3:24pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Not the ones in my garden.
They defend themselves by being fortunate enough to be growing in my square foot beds. Virginia is a "castle doctrine" state. Cross my moat and come at my zucchini and you will likely be "processed" with a Marlin .444 (the Barrett is just too damn big) and end up in my black compost.
And just what do I feel you may ask?
A pretty healthy recoil.
But I don't shoot fish.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 3:58pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
All I have tried to focus on through all of this is the fallacy of claiming "plants are different enough from animals that I am holier than whomever if I only eat plants because they don't feel pain, try to avoid being eaten, blah, blah, blah".
BejScene misses the pt entirely: of course plants ARE different, BUT not in the key respects germane to the ethical issue at hand...they do feel something akin to "pain", they have responded evolutionarily by attempting to minimize this activity (grazing), and thus, the only logical conclusion is they are do different in these key respects to the chickens we take eggs from...
But, though I always benefit by babbling on about such esoteric matters (since I actually do get paid to think, write, talk and refine my perspective on all things biological), I am confident the rest of you would be better served if I just STFU every now and again.
So, I will.
Hope the spring is treating you and all of your subdued and productive inmates well (the plants, which I agree, may in fact be the happier for the tender care they rec' from you and yours!)...good luck with the harvest, all season(s) long, Mando!
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Mandojammer | Date: | May 14, 2010 4:22pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
What about he plants that need a good cutback that double their output? We cut a bunch of arugula and buttercrunch lettuce early this week and the site where we cut has sent out two new shoots each.
I'm sorta going with the "live to serve" mantra.
Here's an update - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41761556@N08/4595836415/
Compare the amount of growth from a month ago - the second pic in the series is a link back to the SFG beds in early April.
We have been picking a pint of strawberries every day for a week now. Blueberries should be coming in in a month and a half and my Apache thornless blackberry bush has about 200 fruit on it right now, and is still full of blooms. The black currant is blooming and my white currant bush has enough fruit on it to make jam.
Can't wait for my habaneros to bear fruit - I believe you when you talk about their defense mechanism. Those most definitely DO NOT go quietly into the dark night.
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 4:35pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
To use our chicken example again, every time you take an egg, the hen lays another...in nature this is "replacement due to loss from a predator" but no one would look at this as an example of the chicken "likes to make eggs for the fox" that keeps taking them...
Right?
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Mandojammer | Date: | May 14, 2010 4:39pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Again.
As usual.
I suppose you could make the argument that left unharvested, the arugula and buttercrunch would bolt and flower and go to seed sooner than if periodically "thinned".
But therein lies the slippery slope referenced earlier. By cutting them back (purely for my benefit a la my salad plate) I force them to respond in such a manner so as to produce more - whether it be out of a defensive posturing or self preservation response.
My issue with harvesting - whether it's a plant or and animal - is to only harvest what I am going to use. And I make a very concerted effort to only plant as much as I plan on using. I think that makes me a responsible steward of the Square Foot approach.
With respect to animals - I used to hunt all the time growing up and with very few exceptions, I ate everything I took. Same approach to fishing - if I don't catch and release I eat it. And I do feel very guilty on that rare occasion when I have a bad hook set and the fish swallows the lure. I'll typically cut the line and let the hook dissolve - hoping that the gut hook set doesn't end up killing the fish.
Very interesting discussion this evening.......
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 14, 2010 5:36pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | beijingscene | Date: | May 14, 2010 10:13pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
dear WT and mandojammer:
sorry, i was out in the garden (seriously). WT: i know about your impressive credentials. i don't lack for them myself. but your above is reductio ad absurdum. please feel free to let this post go straight to compost, but i never claimed "holier than whomever." i follow a millennia-old tradition that works for me and hundreds of millions of other human beings that i think you are blithely dismissing by ascribing characteristics to it that it does not claim or possess. i too am a skeptic, of overcertainty of anything, academic degrees notwithstanding. like you, i do this for a living. what i also do is grow all my own food.
mandojammer, kudos on the SFG. here is a video of our acre under cultivation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AezmqPcfQ0&feature=player_embedded
thank you for chiming in, i was getting tired of playing the [jack] straw man. i am confident that you followed my logic. i was claiming none of the things WT ascribed to me. i live off of what i grow and teach inner-city kids and others how to do the same. i try not to kill any animals, per a millennia-old teaching i was lucky enough to be initiated into and follow. if WT feels the need to deride that as superstition, so be it, it is nothing i have not heard before.
WT, a humble request for a link to your lectures on ethics, humankind and consumption. i will gladly reciprocate with links to my writing, which you could sleuth out easily enough anyway. i know who i am talking to but i don't think you are similarly informed. i know you are most likely to encounter a knee-jerk ideologue ala longnstrange on this forum, but i am the exception to the rule and wish you had treated my views with a little less crankiness and a little more respect, i believe they are worthy of it.
We are stardust, we are golden, We are billion year old carbon
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | Mandojammer | Date: | May 15, 2010 7:19am |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
This post was modified by Mandojammer on 2010-05-15 14:19:12
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | William Tell | Date: | May 15, 2010 7:39am |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
However, if you re-read your posts, for most every expression of my perspective, your item by item reply was a listing of "huh?" or "I believe this" and so on, and so forth.
Very polite, but when one says, "science supports the sky is blue, and therefore" the response of "well, I happen to believe the sky is..." (over-stated, but this was the tone and implication, IMHO of your replies...no?) it eventually causes a bit of crankiness to creep in, eh?
So, if you're now saying you have no problem with plants sharing the same critical components with animals (this was a vital example of the argument gone south: when I said plants and animals are similar, in the KEY respects under discussion, you diverted the discussion with a non-sense "but all agree they are diff!" Of course they are, but they are similar in the KEY respects [pain, etc.]), then you're right...
We have no disagreement. And if you don't hold the stereo-typical holier than thou attitude, great, but it does come thru in some of those exchanges with all the great things you do...just as my snobbish, intellectualist overly analytical pain in the ass won't STFU know it all scientist personality comes thru in mine, I am sure.
So, with all of that, excuse my frustration at having been thwarted at every turn by your responses, and reacting poorly, but patience on web writing is NOT my virture...nor is beating my head against the wall. Last, I do appreciate your kind offer of cont'ing it, but concluded after our first exchange or two it won't do either of us any good...I know you are NOT one of the "creationist" ilk, but it's similar in that those adhering to faith/belief systems simply cannot be impacted by arguments based on the substantive material world in which spiritualism is denied. So, why would we bother, right? We'd both end up worse for wear!
I'll close by saying once more, sorry if I miss interpreted your posts, but I don't think you really wanted the "scientific perspective" (which is fine for you), having long ago rejected that as unsatisfying, which I can understand as well.
If you really do want to know more, research "plant secondary compounds"; "species-ist perspectives in animal welfare"; and "repudiation of Aristolte's tree of life". Seriously, these will help in showing the false distinction among plants and animals, again with the key issues at hand...
Truce?
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | jacob baum | Date: | May 14, 2010 12:52pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
http://infinitefool.blogspot.com/2010/05/may-is-jack-bruce-month_14.html
Reply [edit]
| Poster: | bluedevil | Date: | May 14, 2010 1:02pm |
| Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments... |
